On today’s episode, Dr. Heidi joins us to discuss the relationship between humanity and technology. We talk about using social tech to help us connect rather than disconnect from our fellow people, ask the question, “What is technology doing to us?” and explore the human factor in our relationship to technology. We get into responsible tech design, such as considering how people tend to use or abuse their tech, as well as the responsibility of the users themselves in developing critical thinking and mindfulness when it comes to the effects their use habits have on their well-being. Lastly, Dr. Heidi gives us the low-down on her retreat foundation in France, SCI Valhalla D’Oc, and also shares her 3 favorite hacks for improving your relationship with technology.
How Dr. Heidi helps people use social tech to connect themselves and the people within their organizations
- Using social tech to connect with each other rather than disconnect
- What is technology doing to us?
- Taking responsibility for allowing technology to have so much power over us and recognizing the human factors involved
- The effects of addictive design and how that is still a human factor and not the technology itself
- What does responsible tech design look like?
- Building awareness and critical thinking when it comes to the user end of technology
- Being mindful of your physiological response to technology and evaluating whether your use habits are beneficial to your well-being or not
- The infancy stage of evolving technology and finding the balance between EMF exposure and getting beneficial use out of your tech
- An exploration of Dr. Heidi’s foundation SCI Valhalla D’Oc, a retreat of sorts aimed at helping people to recognize the tools we can use to mitigate the power we give technology over our lives
Dr. Heidi’s 3 favorite hacks for improving your relationship with technology
In this episode you will hear:
- Using technology as a tool for social connection
- What is technology doing to us?
- The human factors at play in our relationship with technology
- Who is responsible for healthy tech use?
- The infancy stage of our evolving technology
- What is Valhalla D’Oc?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste is a Behavioral Scientist and Digital Wellbeing Advisor. She is the best-selling author of the Digital Self Mastery series and executive producer and host of the Evolving Digital Self and Global Nomad Hacks podcasts.
Digital Self Mastery Series on Amazon:
Connect with Dr. Heidi:
Connect with R Blank and Stephanie Warner:
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Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 0:00
And so if we approach things with a critical eye with critical thinking, and we also do development, understanding the critical thinking behind things, then we have a better chance of having a very positive and fluid relationship with technology and having it be something that supports us rather than becomes disrupted in our lives.
Welcome to the healthier tech podcast, the show about building a healthier relationship with modern technology. Now, here are your hosts, R blank and Stephanie Warner.
R Blank 0:36
So this interview with Dr. Heidi brings a lot of unique perspectives to the table, in my opinion. You know, we talk about healthier tech every week on the healthier tech podcast. But what Dr. Heidi has to say, in particular, the way in which she relates, it’s all about people. That’s a direct quote from the interview, you’re about to hear the way in which she explains that, you know, viewing it like it’s it’s not what tech is doing to us. It’s what we’re doing to ourselves. Plus, there’s this neat bit at the end where she talks about her own personal decision making about when to use an aura ring versus an Apple Watch, which I think is really instructive for people. Yeah, I agree. And I really appreciate the
Stephanie Warner 1:16
perspective that we are not really victims to Tech, we are in control of what’s around us and we just need to, you know, create a better balance. So I’m very excited for this episode. And I’m sure our listeners are going to love it and learn lots. Let’s get into it. All right.
R Blank 1:37
Dr. Heidi Forbes Acosta is a behavioural scientist whose mission is to heal the toxic relationships with technology that hinders productivity and engagement in organisations and humanity in general. Her best selling digital self mastery series explores the human relationship with technology and the shifts we need to make to evolve and thrive with it. Dr. Forbes posta is also the executive producer and host of the evolving digital self and global Nomad hacks podcasts. Let’s welcome Dr. Heidi to the show. Hi, Heidi.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 2:08
Hi, thank you so much for inviting me.
R Blank 2:11
Oh, no, this is gonna be great. Your your subject matter expertise is totally in line with what we love covering here. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation.
Stephanie Warner 2:18
Yeah, me too.
R Blank 2:19
So, to start us off, you have over 30 years of experience working with people in organisations, helping them understand how to use social tech to connect themselves and the people within their organisations. That’s a even today with tech surrounding us everywhere. That’s still a pretty unique specialisation. Can you tell us what inspired you to take on this line of work?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 2:42
I would say it’s really all about people. For me, I was one of those strange people that love technology, but was also very much a humanist. And I love people. For me, technology was a way to connect with people rather than away from disconnecting to people. And so it just sort of evolved. It wasn’t necessarily I have to say, it wasn’t really an intentional thing that happened, but I just sort of fell into it. And because I had an aptitude for technology, it’s I kept on having great opportunities to combine those two pieces.
R Blank 3:15
So before we get it, because I want to, you introduced a bunch of topics there, and I want to get into those. But before we do, I understand that you had once had a formative experience involving a fairy. So I was hoping you could talk about what that was, and why it made such an impression on you. Well,
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 3:35
it’s one of those experiences where, you know, where you really discover the fluidity of technology, when it works it, you know, it can make all the difference in the world. And we’ve all had that experience, like technology is great when it works, right. And the ferry experience was really one of those things were I was running late. And this organised and I, you know, went running down to the ferry barely, almost missed it, it was the middle of a fog and, you know, sort of almost having a panic attack about halfway across the, across the channel, all of a sudden, realising that I’d left my phone behind. And, you know, when I was heading off on like a big trip, and basically, nowadays and this was, you know, four or five years ago, you know, you don’t realise just how much you’re reliant on your phone for which is no longer just a phone. That’s everything else. You know, it’s your plane tickets, it’s your, your, your schedules, all the people that you’re meeting, everything is all in this one device. And I had an Apple watch that reacted to my reaction because it recognised that my heartbeat heart rate was going up and basically said it sort of cued me to breathe. And in that moment of taking a breath, I realised that I could use once I got to the other side, I could use it My laptop to ping my phone and to reach out through iMessage to the rest of the people in the mail on the other end, to get my phone to bring it back to me. But without having that moment of breathing and clarity, I would have just continued to spiral. And it was just, you know, when everything communicates, well, all of a sudden things are a lot easier. And it was just but it wasn’t until that physiological response triggered the watch to tell me, hold on, hold on for a second. Just breathe.
R Blank 5:34
So your relationship with tech was both the cause and the solution to the your physiological stress response? Absolutely. So I do like that story. So you’re a managing partner at to balance you. What is what is that organisation?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 5:55
Well, that’s also been an evolution over the years. In its current iteration, I would say we, my husband and I have teamed up together as it was partially a life change option where we both both said, Wait a minute, we’re going into different directions, how about we combine forces and do more work together, and he works more in the food tech space, and then I work more in digital wellbeing. But what we both do a lot of is advising companies, we work with two different venture funds, both as advisors and for scouting for new companies that are doing exciting things in the space. He’s him for more for food, tech and need for digital wellbeing. But it just gave us an opportunity to really combine forces and work collaboratively and basically have a bigger impact. So that’s really sort of where we’re doing. You know, it’s it’s basically a an all encompassing of the different touch points that we have. And the podcasts are under those now, which will actually be combined into one podcast going forward in the new year. So yeah, so it’s a lot of change right now within the company. But that’s what it is.
R Blank 7:13
Yeah, yeah. So stepping back a little bit. And this is going to be a really broad question. So go with it, where you feel most comfortable. But in your experience, what is technology doing to us? And I again, I know that’s a super broad question. There’s a million answers. But you know what, what pops to mind first?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 7:31
Well, my first reaction is technology’s not doing it to us, we are doing it, we are, we are having this. It’s a shared experience. So technology, we often try to put technology in this position where it has the ultimate control, there’s always the human factor have to have choice. And, of course, there’s some things that we feel we have to opt into because of society or work requirements or school requirements are all of these things. But technology is around us everywhere. But it’s not technology that does it to us, we are allowing it, we have to take some responsibility there. But I do think it is becoming much more immersed into our lives by choice. And some of the things we don’t take our own accountability with. And we I think it’s very easy to fall into that victim role of, you know, it’s, for example, the phone, okay, what we call a phone, which is really not a phone. I mean, how many times do you actually use it to make a phone call? For most people their role in, you know, their work and their lives? They don’t make phone calls anymore? They FaceTime or they text or they use whatsapp or whatever it is, but it’s not. Do you even really need a cellular connection? You need a SIM card? We’re often put in we’re putting ourselves in this role. We think, well, you know, my my phone is controlling my life well, or my phone is is causing problems for me as well. That device that you are carrying around. You basically you can put it down. You can turn it off. You can choose the hours that you use it, but we we often don’t.
R Blank 9:28
Yeah. So I mean, one reason and this is a topic we’ve explored in other episodes, but one reason we don’t is well I think you’re entirely right. We don’t realise that we have this power in the way that you’re expressing it. But another is that these devices and particularly the experiences that are designed to run on these devices are intentionally designed to be addictive, right? So when you’re saying we’re making this conscious choice or sub unconscious choice, and we’re really the ones in control what you know, what is the role that these addictive design Let’s play in that cycle.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 10:02
Well, let’s be clear, there’s behavioural science that’s being manipulated by engineers who are designing the software, this, this is still a human factor. It’s not the technology itself that’s causing the problem. It’s the if and this is where my work with digital wellbeing initially where I wanted to get more into policy, because you have this whole piece of, you’re allowing engineers to use manipulative, behavioural science, to modify whatever tools that they’re creating, so that they’re harder to make those choices. But that doesn’t mean that that’s the technology that’s causing the problem. Do you see where I’m?
Stephanie Warner 10:48
Yeah, I think that’s a really yeah, there’s a really powerful distinction. And it kind of bridges me a little into something else that I’m aware that you advocate for, which is designing technology, realising the ways that realising the ways that we as humans relate to the technology, and what really does that mean for you?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 11:09
For me, it’s about responsibility. And unfortunately, we are in a place right now, where there you know, there’s so many things that are, you know, pulling us in different directions, and polarising us and how our, how our belief systems and how we use things, many people are falling into this space of feeling like they’re victimised at all times, they don’t trust, there’s there’s a lack of trust, and there’s a lack of willingness to really learn what’s behind things. And this, this holds true also for technology. This is not just politics, it’s not just, you know, news, it’s it really is embedded in everything that we do. And so if we approach things with a critical eye with critical thinking, and we also do development, understanding the critical thinking behind things, then we have a better chance of having a very positive and fluid relationship with technology, and having it be something that supports us rather than becomes disrupted in our lives. So it’s, if we can teach more about critical thinking, but also recognising how to give the tools so that we can understand what’s behind everything that we do, and that we use. So you know, if it’s purely based on profit, there’s generally you need to look at sort of, what’s the source beside behind that, who is profiting from it? Where are the benefits, and I think we’re often not taught that critical thinking piece. And we certainly are not embedding that in how we do design.
Stephanie Warner 12:49
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And it makes me think, so I, so there’s, like, there’s an on the business side. So we have, as business people have a responsibility to be thinking about the human side, what we’re doing what we’re creating. And then as on the user side, it feels like you’re advocating for like building this awareness to how we interact and how we feel and how we use our technology. And I think I’ve actually heard you in one of the previous interviews, I was listening to you were talking about building awareness of your physiological, physiological response to technology. I feel like maybe this is a good place to kind of talk about what that is, and how we, as users can, you know, become more aware of of how we’re using our tech and whether it’s good for us and create that balance.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 13:39
Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, one thing I talked a lot about and did a bunch of research on while I was doing my dissertation years ago, was just some of the simple things like technic, for example, which is they, it’s, you know, chiropractors love technic, because they make a lot of money on technic, most of the younger generation and I haven’t I have to say also that, you know, pretty much everybody nowadays because particularly after COVID, where people, you know, start we’re having to consume everything and to communicate through devices, we put too much strain on our feet, and our postures changed, and we put too much strain on the back of our neck. And, you know, that’s why I’m excited about things like you know, the potential for the new versions of augmented reality glasses and things like this, where you’re no longer consuming your, your data or your information through a device that you have to tilt your head down for all of a sudden it becomes right in front of your face and you’re looking at the world again. There’s a lot of progression that we’re I think, the last 15 years, we’ve really been immersed in this stage of baby tech. That is, you know, there’s it’s not very healthy for us because it’s, you know, we haven’t figured out What is sort of that optimal amount of electromagnetic frequencies, the minimal amount that we can emit, in order to get the functionality, but that is not damaging to the physiological body. The things like that that are, you know, we’re just throwing, you know, it’s the engineers that are developing things that are lots of really great cool technologies. But we haven’t really figured out we don’t have the long term studies to figure out just how they are physiologically impacting a whole generation of users. And what with the newer tech that’s coming out, we’re starting to have the opportunity to have contact with these devices or with this data and with this information, without having to have the technic without having to, you know, manipulate your, your thumbs so that they, you know, you get cramps in your hands. You know, it’s, we’re in this sort of infinite, it’s doesn’t seem like it, but I think we’re still that in that infancy stage where we’re trying to figure out what is that optimal blend, and it’s different for every human. So there’s that challenge of how do you fit it for that in between, you know, the greatest need with the least impact?
R Blank 16:18
Yeah, and I think, and this isn’t, I guess, gonna be a question so much as me saying an opinion. But based on my knowledge of, of EMF science, there’s effectively no safe dose of the human made forms of EMF radiation. And so that that question about where value is actually created versus where the risk is, I think is even is even more important, because it’s effectively every exposure that provides additional or creates additional risk. And, and so you really need to focus on where the value is being created in ways of minimising your use and minimising the damage that can result so but I’ll get off, I’ll get off my soapbox, and return the interview to you.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 17:02
I know I agree with you. But I think it’s also important to recognise that cell phones aren’t the first thing that’s provided EMFs this EMFs have been around, there’s things there’s plenty of other things that are providing that are creating EMFs for
R Blank 17:16
us. Yeah, light since the invention of the light bulb?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 17:20
Exactly. So yes, I think it’s very, it’s only that it’s become mainstream conversation. And so it’s very easy to sort of say, well, you know, it’s your cell phone that’s causing the EMF, if you fix that everything else will be fine. Well,
R Blank 17:33
they do tend to be a really huge source for people’s exposures, but the way that they are designed and the way that they’re carried and used. So even with all of these extended, exposures happening everywhere around us, it is often the cell phone that is in the pocket or up against the head, that is a tremendous source, even if there’s 1000 Other sources?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 17:53
Well, of course, because it’s not just a phone, as we talked about earlier, but we use it for so it’s an essential part of our lives at this point. And so I think it’s, it’s important to recognise the the things that you can do to at least minimise the effects. You know, I, I’ve been recently speaking with a lot of other women that are in my age group, and everybody’s having hip problems. Now, hip problems are not unusual for women in their 50s. You know, the bone density issues and things like that. But what’s interesting is that, and this is, you know, not based on an actual study, I have no, no, this is anecdotal. But what I have found is that a lot of women who carry their cell phone in one pocket, tend to have more issues on that hip. And so it’s sort of anecdotal. I’ve been asking around, like, you know, do you carry your cell phone in your pocket? And, you know, why are you limping? I don’t know if it’s necessarily that’s the cause, but it certainly doesn’t help. That was sort of my conclusion and and so I tried to, you know, not carry it in my pocket. I also tried to my phone is off most of the time, which is very annoying for people. They’re like, wait a minute, you’re a technology person why
R Blank 19:11
I find that that’s helpful for mental health, not just EMF exposure health.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 19:15
Exactly. Or if, if I haven’t, you know, I keep it in a bag. I don’t. Yeah, I try not to carry it on my person.
R Blank 19:22
So transitioning to a slightly well related but slightly different topic I was reading about and I probably gonna say this wrong. But Valhalla, Doc, yes.
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Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 19:34
Can you correct me? It’s Valhalla doc. And you probably wouldn’t know that. It may only because it should have to cease its oxytocin, which is the area in France that it is.
R Blank 19:45
Okay. So this is an executive retreat facility. And it is, and I’ll let you obviously let you describe it, but it’s very tightly related to issues surrounding the relationship of technology given the room work environment, which is obviously increasingly relevant in the past two, three years. So I was hoping you could you could talk a little bit about this and what you do and what you’ve learned so far? Well,
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 20:12
it to be totally transparent COVID was not very helpful. In developing Valhalla dock, we had about two years where the construction was paused. So we’re still developing the centre, it is, you know, the intention with the way that we are setting it up is we’re trying to create an environment where we can really test basically the, you know, creating spaces that are offline versus as well as highly connected spaces. So that we can utilise it for everything from podcasts to, to filming to doing things like that, but you have them in a mixed environment. So that also means you need to have, we have we’ve embedded sort of kill switches within the entire facilities so that at night, for example, we turn all of the internet connections off, and you can choose to toggle them within your room if you want to, you know, watch a movie or something like that from your iPad. But for before example, all of the connections, the are hardwired, in the bedrooms, and the not all of the charging stations or everything. They’re on the opposite side of the room, from the beds and things like that. So it’s trying to really look at what kinds of things can we do to mitigate and still be connected with the over connected world, and technology using technology, but also recognising the different tools that we can use and testing the different tools that we can use to you know, to have a better relationship and minimise the effects of that connectedness.
R Blank 21:57
And what was the driving and that, by the way, that sounds amazing. I hope that I get to, I mean, always like a good excuse to visit France, but I hope that I get to see it. So but what was what was the because you do so much in this area, what was the driving force behind creating an institution like this?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 22:15
Well, to be honest, it really came down to the start for me was I spoke at CES four years in row. And every year I went to this is the the consumer consumer electronics show in Vegas, right and it takes over the entire city. Which is very exciting. And you know, always loved going because I could test all the new technology and speak with people about what they were developing. Every time I went there, I would get my whole body would seize up. Literally, like I couldn’t walk a block without being in excruciating pain. Wow. And it was, it was just an overload of EMFs. I don’t go anymore, unfortunately, because I just can’t, I just it takes me a week to recover. After going to CES. It’s just too much of that. And I found that actually, quite frankly, it doesn’t take ces for that to happen. I’ve been there to speak at other events, and it’s just there’s so much like light pollution, everything else, whatever it is, does not agree with my body. And and I just felt like there’s got to be a better way you have these, you know, you have these incredible facilities, why can’t we, you know, create buffers that make it a safer place and, and make it a better place. Because it’s only going to get we’re only gonna have more technology, it’s not going away. But we need to find ways that we can still work with it. And I mean, I guess I was sort of an extreme case, because when I first started it, the reason that I switched my dissertation while I was doing my PhD to were looking at where wellness wearables was because I got Lyme disease and I got really sick and I was basically bed bound for a year and a half. And I, you know, I started using wearable technologies to help me understand when my body was able to function so I could get sort of the minimal amount of work done each time within the windows that I had the energy to work with. And as a result, I ended up my finishing my PhD in three and a half years. And the rest of my peers took almost five. But because I was able to really understand what was going on with my body by using the tools that were available to me. In these technologies, I was able to maximise that output much more than anybody else that’s really interesting. So for me, I recognised that they you know, the technology if we use it wisely, and if we use it in a way that can really support us, we can be more productive and more effective and and not have to suffer. But if we just barrel along and you know, use what’s available to us, we can end up here During ourselves far more than we anticipate.
R Blank 25:03
Yeah, I don’t know if you may already be aware of this. But Lyme disease is a is those who have had Lyme disease are much more susceptible to EMF sensitivity. And that’s, that’s a pretty well documented. And just one other on on anecdote, because you mentioned CES, and I used to live in Las Vegas. And I would go every year with my, with one of my EMF metres and take measurements off of all these new devices where you can’t actually get, you know, they don’t publish what the readings are. So So I would go and I would measure and I would film and I would record and I post. And it was, it was pretty enlightened. Like, I remember, you know, there were certain things where you think they might be really significant. And they were much less. And then there was one like, there was this some kind of beauty mirror with, like a screen display built in. And the levels were just off the charts. And, you know, everyone’s looking at me measuring this stuff. And I look like a real weirdo. I’m sure. But but you know, it’s not a topic that’s very welcoming in that in that environment.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 26:08
No, it’s not. It’s I mean, it is, and it’s not they depends on who you’re talking to. They want to know about it. And they’re, they’re curious, but they’re scared of it. Because it’s not something they consider when they’re developing. Like I said, it’s an engineer driven, right. design driven for design, visual design, but not for health.
Stephanie Warner 26:34
Yeah, I think that’s pretty, pretty common, I think, you know, I feel like that conversation is changing a bit where we’re, we’re looking at, you know, is this actually good for us in many different ways, whether it’s health, mental health, physical health, but that kind of brings me to, I noticed that you assembled a bunch of hacks to improve your relationship with technology, on your website, which you know, people can find there, but which three are your favourite?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 27:04
Oh, my easiest favourite, is aeroplane mode.
Stephanie Warner 27:10
We love that one, too.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 27:13
Aeroplane mode is really helpful, because you can, you know, you can get the basic functionality of your phone, but you’re not disrupted. And, and that’s not just necessarily an EMF thing. It’s just the constant disruption of notifications and pings and things like that. And, and we don’t realise just how much that causes a physiological response in our bodies every time that that occurs. For some people, it’s positive, for some people, it’s negative, but it still, it does have it does cause a physiological response every time you get a notification. So I love aeroplane mode. I would say, another piece that I really love is actually wired headphones. Because they, again, they don’t have as much EMF, but they’re also you know, particularly and I, you know, I’m very transparent and that I’m very much an apple person. But the apple headset, the why of the old wired ones, actually have some of the best sound and microphones. And so they’re really great for consuming, you know, a book or a podcast or whatever else without having that disruption of the Bluetooth, which for some people really doesn’t jive well with their bodies. And a third one that’s tough to choose which one of the third ones but see?
R Blank 28:41
Oh, gosh, made me to put you on the spot.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 28:45
So many good there’s so many good ones. And it really and I’m trying to pick ones that are relevant to everybody because you know, my big sort of thesis is is really just every person is so individual on how they on their relationship with technology. So it’s not people ask me all the time you what’s the best wearable device or what you know, what’s the best tool what’s the best phone or the best this whatever, there is no best for everyone. It’s everyone is so individual. But I would say trying to find the tools that help you support you know, support you with minimal friction. So for example, I use an Apple Watch and an aura ring. And although the aura ring also does the heart rate monitoring and the watch does sleeping, I prefer to sleep with an aura ring because it doesn’t I don’t think about something on my wrist and just that disruption alone and the potential that I’ll twist my wrist and it’ll get light on my face is enough for me to have a little bit of friction so it’s better for me to wear the ring. And then my watch I use all day long. And I let my my my ring charge because it actually but it’s not as comfortable on my hands. So then I have, you know, the friction during the day is my impacts my grip. So I would say finding the ultimate device that works for you is the most important thing
R Blank 30:13
that yeah, that was a really great illustration of the trade off of the technology based on your relationship with that also, my understanding is that the aura ring is significantly lower source of EMF exposure, which which can disrupt sleep, in addition to the light from from the face, but that was I really liked that. So thank you. How can our listeners learn more about you and digital self mastery series? And you know, where would you like them to go to connect with you?
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 30:43
I would say, you know, the digital self mastery series as it is still available on Amazon. Disclaimer, the last book came out pre COVID. But it’s about the human relationship with technology. So the stories may not be the most up to date, but they the relationship is still the same. And the tips that are in there still the same can apply to because it’s really looking at which personality type you have, and how you relate to technology and the tools, the tools that you can use for improving that relationship. I’m working on a book right now, which is more of a multimedia experience, which hopefully will come out next spring, not making no promises because it depends on how long it’s going to take for production. But hopefully that will give you a better understanding of potential ways to consume information. It’s not a business book. And it’s not a behavioural science book. It’s actually a story. But it’s going to be integrated into using the tools of how you can really consume stories and information and learn about history and an easier way.
R Blank 31:49
I love that. So hopefully, you know, hopefully we can have you back on when that’s out. We can we can talk about that would love to. So Dr. Heidi, thank you so much for taking the time to join us on the healthier tech podcast. This was a really, I think, really insightful discussion. We loved learning about your background and your work. But more than that, I think the perspective that you bring to this this topic, it was really educational for me.
Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste 32:13
Well, thank you very much. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
Stephanie Warner 32:15
Absolutely. It was great. Thank you so much. My pleasure.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the healthier tech podcast. Remember to check the show notes for all the links and resources mentioned in the show. Please like and subscribe to the healthier tech podcast on Apple, Spotify or your podcast platform of choice. Get your free quickstart guide to building a healthy relationship with technology and our latest information at healthier tech.co
Transcribed by https://otter.ai