In today’s episode, Jordan joins us to talk about those leaders that can be viewed as abrasive, harsh, and maybe even bullies. He explains how he uses the ethos of the Navy Seals to complete the full picture of the workplace warrior, of which these types of people usually have an incomplete view. We examine the four types of warriors outlined in Jordan’s book, some of the positions more likely to be taken as abrasive regardless of industry, and the importance of responding to your perceived experience in a healthy way. We also look at ways in which social media may be playing a part in fostering abrasiveness, like dehumanizing our interactions and lowering our tolerance for discomfort.
Jordan shares with us the importance of using the proper framework when communicating, especially when the interaction is not face-to-face, as well as an excellent example of giving negative feedback in a compassionate way. We discuss compassion vs sympathy, learning to speak the language of those you are leading, and how to evaluate the success of your interactions. Lastly, we talk about how important it is to have a way to destress, giving examples of useful apps or other technology and methods.
In this episode, you will hear:
- The four types of workplace warriors
- The role of social media in regards to abrasive, aggressive behavior
- Learning to communicate effectively
- Recommendations for mindfulness apps to destress and meditate
- Actionable tips for giving negative feedback
Jordan Goldrich is a Master Corporate Executive Coach, Certified Stakeholder Centered Coach, and Professional Certified Coach who partners with leaders and executives to achieve business results while developing their organizations, their reports, and their own leadership skills. He specializes in working with valuable executives who are experienced as abrasive or even bullies to be completely authentic, fulfill their mission, eliminate complaints, and drive results without damaging relationships® As Chief Operations Officer of a specialized behavioral healthcare company, Jordan was part of the team that created an 800% revenue increase, attained a California Knox-Keene license, and executed an acquisition by WellPoint Health Networks. He created a customer-focused culture using cross-functional team problem-solving methods rooted in Lean Manufacturing and 6 Sigma. He applies Agile Software Development to Leadership.
Jordan has 15+ years of experience with the Center for Creative Leadership. He was recognized as one of CCLs highest-rated coaches in 2019. He is co-author of the Amazon best seller, Workplace Warrior: People Skills for the No-BullSh*t Executive. He is producer/host of the podcast, Workplace Warrior®: Drive Results Without Damaging Relationships® on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, and Amazon. He is the Founder and CEO of Workplace Warrior®, Inc. a firm providing executive coaching and leadership development.
Connect with Jordan:
- Website: workplacewarriorinc.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jgoldrich
- Twitter: twitter.com/jordangoldrich1
- Facebook: facebook.com/jordan.goldrich
- Workplace Warrior podcast
Jordan Goldrich 0:00
And so I think the main reason why you want to treat people respectfully, if you want to be a good leader, and if you want to be successful is because they won’t tell you stuff you don’t know. If, if you don’t do that, the side effect is they feel respected.
Welcome to the healthier tech podcast, the show about building a healthier relationship with modern technology. Now, here are your hosts, R blank and Stephanie Warner.
R Blank 0:31
So that was a that was a really, really interesting interview with Jordan Goldrich. You. I mean, obviously, the focus was on on abrasiveness and management and but I feel like for our audience, there’s there’s a lot of great takeaways specific to the topics we cover. And like, just one of the examples was the importance of, of maybe when there’s important things to talk about doing it face to face, or even over the phone instead of instead of through email and other text based media because of the lack of body language and what that can do to delivering difficult or important messages.
Stephanie Warner 1:08
Yeah, I’m really glad you brought that point up. Because there’s so much in this episode, I’m so excited for everyone to hear it. But that was a really great takeaway is the importance of doing things in person and having some cues that the receiving end the receiving person can take, you know, email, there are no cues, there’s no you’re just interpreting what you think, rather than having any sort of a human cue to understand. You know, the message basically.
R Blank 1:42
today’s podcast guest is executive coach, best selling author and former C suite executive Jordan Goldbridge. Jordan knows the importance of discipline, compassion, empathy, and healthy behaviors. But not because he had started his career that way. Jordan can deal with the toughest of the tough CEOs and leaders, and he knows what it takes to be heard, all without raising his voice. Jordan, welcome to the healthier tech podcast.
Jordan Goldrich 2:07
It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
R Blank 2:10
So kicking us off your company is called workplace warrior, which, which I love. Can you tell my listeners what it is you do and what a workplace warrior actually is?
Jordan Goldrich 2:21
Yeah, so I am an executive coach. And I work with a number of different kinds of clients. But primarily, I focus on executives who have been experienced as abrasive, and perhaps even called names like bully and other names that are used these days. And my experience of them is that most of them don’t want to hurt people. It’s partly cultural. I think I come from a loud New York family. And I once lost the job and executive position because I didn’t quite get that the way my family speaks isn’t the way that other people speak. And
R Blank 3:06
the other guy can relate, by the way, I can totally relate to that. Not
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Jordan Goldrich 3:11
work by any chance.
R Blank 3:12
Yeah, well, Bergen County, yeah.
Jordan Goldrich 3:15
Okay. So it’s partly that. And it’s partly that people who are very committed to results and success and getting it right, have their self esteem tied to that and when things don’t go, right, they feel personally attacked. And often they respond with what’s an essentially underneath a defensive response, but people have experienced it as disrespectful or attacking them. So those are the two things I got very tired of hearing the top thought leaders and leadership. Is it okay, if I you use a slightly bad word? Yes. Okay. You know, there was a book called The no Asshole Rule. That was, I think, a New York Times bestseller and there’s books like, like snakes and suits and jerks and all of this stuff. So all of the people who believe in respect and compassion feel totally okay to use that kind of language with people they don’t like. And what I realized was is that I do a bunch of volunteer work for an organization called the Honor Foundation, which helps Navy Seals and other groups, other special operations forces transition and when I looked at the Navy SEALs ethos, I realized that these people are not miserable snakes, etc. What they are is incomplete warriors compared to the Navy SEALs ethos, which in addition to you know, holding yourself accountable holding everybody up was accountable never being out of the mission also has things like, humbly serve, protect people who can’t protect themselves. So that’s where workplace warrior came from was trying to change the conversation around abrasiveness.
R Blank 5:15
So what are the types of workplace warriors? I know you you hone in on? I think four?
Jordan Goldrich 5:20
Yeah, well, actually the book is called workplace warrior people skills for the No bullshit executive. So there’s four types of no bullshit executive warrior is the elite. And they are people who really, in many ways, emulate not on purpose necessarily, but have the same kind of commitments as the Navy SEALs. So for instance, you know, they’re totally focused on success, they hold people accountable, they take charge, they lead their team. And at the same time, they exhibit just enough compassion, and just enough respect. The next group I call the scientist. And they’re highly analytic people, usually their engineers or their medical professionals or something like that. And they get experienced as abrasive not because necessarily that they’re verbally abrasive, but they’re experienced is not available. And then the third group are abrasive executives, I fall into that group, they’re people who, again, as I said, either come from loud families or loud cultures or direct cultures or and or have their self esteem tied to whether or not they’re right, whether you know, all of that stuff. And so I had this tendency, I didn’t use profanity. I didn’t bully people, I, you know, I didn’t publicly embarrass them. But there was a tone of voice that I had around, which was filled with impatience, which people experienced as disrespectful. And some of them experienced it as bullying. And then the last group, I couldn’t come up, you know, I hate calling people names, but I couldn’t come up. I couldn’t, I spent a good three or four months trying to figure out what to call the last group, but I ended up calling them sociopaths, because that’s what they are, they enjoy hurting people. And that’s a relatively small group, compared to the amount of executives who are experienced as abrasive.
R Blank 7:25
So getting back to the focus on the abrasive, and there’s one I want to talk about there. But as a, as, in my former life, I spent 20 years in the tech industry. And I’m just wondering, is it my biased perspective? Or does the tech industry seem to have more than its fair share of abrasive executives?
Jordan Goldrich 7:47
You know, I haven’t done any studies I have done I have worked with a lot of tech industry executives, I You talking about at the top? The people who are responsible for sales and for for ROI?
R Blank 8:03
Jordan Goldrich 8:04
Yeah. So I think in general, that those folks tend to be experienced as more abrasive, regardless of industry.
R Blank 8:11
Okay, that’s interesting. So what do you think contributes to the perspective of that leads one to become an abrasive manager?
Jordan Goldrich 8:22
Yeah. So, you know, as, as I said, and just the ticket a little deeper. Part of it is culture. So I recently was working with somebody who is South African, South Africa has a very direct communication style. If you come from New York, or especially Brooklyn, you know, so when I, when I get around people, I lived in St. Louis for 12 years. And my, my boss, who was born in rural Missouri, spent three months with me talking to me in country, so I could, so I could learn how to say, Hi, how you doing? You know, I also worked with an executive who was born and raised in, I believe it was Brazil, who was working in Germany, who was talking about how his boss is disrespectful. And one of the tests we did was to measure whether or not his boss spoke to him in the same way he spoke to everybody else. And ultimately, he decided, you know, it’s pretty similar. It’s not personal. So there’s a big issue around by the way, there’s a big issue in responding to this in a healthy way, which which has to do with you experience yourself as a victim or do you experience yourself as a target when that stuff is directed at you? And we have a lot of conversation these days around, you know, if there’s a micro aggression, you need to go into a room and recover for a couple hours and very little focus on and how other people talk to you and treat you needs to be separated from how you experience yourself and your self esteem.
R Blank 10:09
Do you think that every or most executives that you work with have the potential to advance to the warrior type? Are there limitations that would prevent that? That type of growth?
Jordan Goldrich 10:23
Yeah, so I don’t know I am, I am not a warrior. And I have warrior characteristics. But part of my goal is, I don’t have the uncommon desire for success. And results. You know, I’m not totally driven in that way as the warrior is, you know, the Military Warrior, people are going to die if, you know, if you haven’t figured every little thing out, right. And I am considered kind of obsessive by most of the people who know me. And think that I’m overly concerned about doing it right and what have you. But knowing myself, there’s a part of me that says, especially at age 69, there’s a piece of me that just doesn’t care anymore. So.
R Blank 11:16
So I’ve read a lot, I continue to read, there’s a growing number of studies on the topic of social media, and the disintermediation that it fosters leading to an increase in make what I believe falls under your category, or your definition of abrasive or let’s say, anti social behaviors, and it’s not really rocket science, right? When you don’t have to ever see or meet the person you’re interacting with. Right, you’re naturally less inclined to hold back your hostility. Right? Do you see an overlap between those behaviors that that are manifesting online, between even between friends, but especially between strangers? And what’s going on in the workplace?
Jordan Goldrich 11:56
Yeah, so let me share my research perspective with you, which is, it feels like it’s connected with what’s called canceled culture. And it’s like, if you say, the wrong thing, or you do one thing, you’re canceled. And it does seem like the fact that you can do it on Twitter or on Facebook or whatever, what have you and not in person gives people permission to be a lot nastier than they might be if they were sitting in front of you. So but there is this, you know, it’s really interesting, it’s, we’ve we’ve lost compassion, we’ve lost the understanding that sort of like on both sides of the political spectrum. It’s okay to call the other side nasty names and disrespectful names. You know, when when I was growing up, it wasn’t.
Stephanie Warner 12:53
Yeah, I feel like there’s a low tolerance for discomfort. Yes, something makes you feel uncomfortable. There’s something wrong with who’s making you for what’s making you feel uncomfortable, rather than necessarily taking it a little more internal. Like, why is this making me feel uncomfortable? And how do I build resilience to that?
Jordan Goldrich 13:10
Right? And is it so terrible if you feel uncomfortable, right? Absolutely. So how are you ever going to stand up and being a separate human being who can take care of yourself? If you can’t tolerate being uncomfortable?
R Blank 13:26
Right? Oh, go ahead. No, no, no, go?
Stephanie Warner 13:29
Well, I was just gonna ask if, if the if you find that kind of inability to feel discomfort is, are you seeing that manifesting in the mat and the management styles that are the abrasive management styles that you’re experiencing? So CEO feels discomfort? They’re lashing out?
Jordan Goldrich 13:48
Yeah, no, typically, they think that the requirement that they be more respectful so that people won’t feel uncomfortable as a bunch of politically correct bull. And my job with them is to find intrinsic motivation. In other words, this ain’t gonna work unless we can figure out some reason why you would make these changes, even if there wasn’t the threat of you losing your job.
Stephanie Warner 14:13
Right. Right. That may be true, but we still have productively.
Jordan Goldrich 14:19
And by the way, one of the nice things about coming from the family I came from, is that I kind of agree with it. I mean, it’s amazing to me how sensitive people are sometimes.
R Blank 14:31
But those are the people that you as a leader have to lead, right. So is your job to adapt to them? Or is it their job to change just to function in your workplace?
Jordan Goldrich 14:40
Well, you have nailed one of the key intrinsic reasons why these people decide to change. And that is they want to be a great leader. And once they have gotten that you’ve got to lead you’ve got to speak the language of the people that you’re leading. Yeah, You know, otherwise you’re not a great leader. If you can’t get people to commit whoever you’re whoever you’re trying to lead, you need to be able to get them to align and commit. Right? If you can’t, yeah, and if you can’t do that, so sometimes we look for, you know what, you know, certainly what is the benefit of making this change, even though it’s a pain in the neck, and you don’t think you should have to
R Blank 15:22
do it? When you work with a, an abrasive, leader, or manager or executive? Do you ever? And the answer may be, you don’t have any examples of this, but right, because it’s much easier even if you know the person you’re talking to, it’s much easier to lash out if it’s over email or text than it would be face to face. And more and more of this communication is happening over email and text than then used to, and it seems to be continuing that way with remote work and increasing remote work. Is technology etiquette. Part of the focus of trying to make an abrasive leader less abrasive?
Jordan Goldrich 16:02
Yeah, so there is a tendency when you’re really busy, as you’re saying to just respond through email. And part of the problem with email is that you can’t read body language in context. And so usually, and by the way, I didn’t I didn’t make this up. I’ve gotten this from people who spoke to me about it. Back in the earlier days, when there was email, but not as much as there is today, which is if you have something that’s, you know, that could be experienced as negative. Call them up, have a conversation?
R Blank 16:45
Yeah, I hate using the phone. But I understand exactly what you’re talking about.
Jordan Goldrich 16:51
I have really, I’ve had to learn how to when I respond to emails. And you know, I don’t, nobody works for me. So I’m not criticizing them. But even you know, I’m not leading them, you know, but even so people will say, What do you think about this? And I’ve had to learn to say, well, I liked this, and I liked this. And if it’s okay, let me I have a different perspective. So I put a lot of context around what I write in emails. And it took me a really long time to learn that. And in the past, you know, I would just say, No, I don’t agree or blah, blah, blah, it’s you. I wish it was a matter of fact, tone in my head, but the way it was read was nasty, dismissive and disrespectful.
R Blank 17:35
Right? Yeah. So it’s about the framing and the context more than the actual message that you’re embedding in it?
Jordan Goldrich 17:41
Yeah, you can say almost, by the way, it’s harder and email, but you can say almost anything to anybody, if you put the right frame around it.
Stephanie Warner 17:48
Absolutely. Is that a big part of your of your work?
Jordan Goldrich 17:53
Yeah. So that’s the technique. So after somebody decides that it is there intrinsic motivation? And the other one besides, do you want to be a good leader? And do you want to be successful? Because if you one of the arguments, I leave, I leave? I use is that, that everybody in your organization knows stuff? You don’t know. So let me tell you a quick story. So back in 19, so I stopped working there. And when did I stop working there? Well, back it was like about 1987 or so when I started working as the Chief Operations Officer of the healthcare, specialized health care company, about a year or two into it, I realized I needed to work on my, you know, on my style of communication, and I hired this guy who happened to be I met him because he was dating a friend of mine. And he was into Lean and Six Sigma. And he was working for roar industries, which I’m not even sure exists anymore, but they would fly him around the world, train manufacturing, floor manufacturing, how to, you know, raise quality and efficiency. So Louis said to me, about four months into working with me comes into my office, and he sits down and he says to me, you know, I’ve been wanting you to have all these meetings with people. And I realized that it’s not your style, and also you’re working 6070 hour weeks, and you don’t have time because you’re building the plane as you fly it. And so I’m going to stop pressuring you to have all of these meetings with all of these key stakeholders. But there was one thing you’re going to do. And I said, What’s that? And he said, Before you tell anybody what to do, they get you. You ask them, What am I I’m missing or Why won’t this work, they get to tell you why it won’t work. And then he said, so if you’re going to tell the garbage man to pick up the garbage differently, the garbage man gets to tell you why it won’t work. If you’re going to tell the receptionist to answer the phone differently, the receptionist gets to tell you why it won’t work. And then he said, If you don’t do that, two things are gonna happen. And they said, What’s that? And he said, The first is, I’m going to quit. And I said, What’s the other, and Louis six foot five, I’m about? Well, I’m about five, seven and a half now. But I was about five, eight at the time, Louis said, you’re gonna get your butt kicked. Now, Louis, was from a family in Louisiana. He was very, very polite, and respectful and quiet in his was the first time he had spoken to me that way. And it was the first time I heard him. So it’s a good example of culture. Because he was speaking to me so nice along the line, I just just didn’t. So I started doing it. And it was amazing to me how much the line people knew that I didn’t know that they weren’t telling me because they didn’t want to deal with my impatience and my tone of voice. And so I think the main reason why you want to treat people respectfully, if you want to be a good leader, and if you want to be successful, is because they won’t tell you stuff you don’t know. If you don’t do that, the side effect is they feel respected. Ultimately, though, a lot of the abrasive leaders are religious people. So interest, and a number of them, you know, I usually ask somewhere along the line, I want to know, what are your you know, what? Who are you as a human being? What are your core values, because we need to find some reason why you would make this change when all of these stupid, overly sensitive, people are giving you a hard time. And I often find out that they really are religious people. And I take it a little further and ask you really believe that God or the spirit, or however they refer to it is acting in your life. And if they convinced me that they do, one of the questions along the line is, is it possible that you’re that God, or your spirit has put you here so that you can learn compassion, respect, and
compassion and respect? And I’ve had people just go, Oh, my God, I’ve been at a I’ve been out of alignment with with what I believe. And at that point, what’s left is okay, let’s go to the technique. How do you do it? So part of the technique is how do you give negative feedback? Put a proper frame around it? And how do you say it in such a way that it’s less likely to trigger a negative
R Blank 23:03
reaction? And a lot of that would be that it’s increasingly face to face and maybe less intermediated? By my screens?
Jordan Goldrich 23:12
You know, and certainly during COVID, that was a big, you know, that was Yeah, tended to be but you know, before COVID, a lot of it was in person because everybody was in the office with. But you’re absolutely correct. By the way, I know, this is a tech podcast, and no one, let me throw in that one of the real things that’s been very valuable in recent times. The other thing you have to do is learn how to calm yourself down. And it used to be that you had to go in person to a mindfulness course, or relaxation course. And there’s some really good apps out there now. That make it a lot easier, especially for very busy people to learn how to calm their adrenaline down.
R Blank 23:59
Yeah, so that’s, that’s interesting. And to me, because that, because it’s an example, right, where I feel like, probably the fact that they’re constantly using the phone is, is maybe let’s say not helpful to their to their level of calmness. But then you can get an app for your phone. And if you use it the right way, and intentionally and diligently, you can actually you can use that same device that’s creating stress for yourself and use it to actually reduce the level of stress.
Jordan Goldrich 24:27
Absolutely. And you could perhaps help me can you give me a feel for some of the apps that you think are the best apps out there?
R Blank 24:34
Well, I I do things like walk on the beach for that. I do know that calm has a good reputation. i Not that they I don’t know, Doug, maybe we can ask them to be a sponsor. Now that I’ve said that. Not that they sponsor anything, but I’ve heard I’ve heard very good things about the calm app. I can’t I’m not I’m not too aware of any of the others.
Jordan Goldrich 24:59
Yeah, there is one called 10%. Happier? Okay. And there’s a new one coming out called Well, it’s not out yet they’re working on it. But but you can you can take the class is called Unified mindfulness. So I’d encourage your audience to Google unified mindfulness. It’s, it’s out of UCLA, I believe. And it’s the first time in history that Western science has worked with people who are trained in the 2600 years of Eastern philosophy. And working together to come up with how do you calm yourself down? And
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R Blank 25:41
interesting, that was really interesting. I’m definitely gonna check that out. Yes. So do you use do use those apps?
Jordan Goldrich 25:49
Well, interestingly enough, a good friend of mine introduced me to it, he used to work for me. And the fact that he worked for me was an accident. If he had been there first, I would have worked for him. But he is a longtime Buddhist practitioner. And he was the head of the employee assistance program for sharp re steely Hospital, which is one of the best in the world, the sharp health system, which is one of the best and on the West Coast. And he introduced something called compassion cultivation, which was developed at Stanford. And, and then he became involved with the mindfulness group, well, apparently, there’s a group, and I’m gonna have trouble remembering the name, but there’s a group that it’s called EQ, why EQ, UA. And there’s two equids. So this is, you’re gonna have to check it out. But anyway, he introduced me to that. And I’m actually on the fifth lesson from the app, which is on my phone. And so it
R Blank 26:59
is doing it or finding value in it, or I am,
Jordan Goldrich 27:03
I am. And it, I had trouble with mindfulness, because my mind races so much, that it would be very uncomfortable for me to just sit there. And the difference with this is what they’ve integrated in is that as you’re watching your mind, they have three pieces. There’s constant concentration, sensory, clarity, or sensory awareness. And last word is not peace, but separation, whatever, I’m just blanking on the word. But when you sit and do the exercises, you the goal is to name which sense you’re experiencing. So you know, if I, if I were seeing something, I’d say, see, if I were hearing something, I’d say here, if I were feeling something in my body, I’d say feel. And the idea is to trigger is to create the ability to watch yourself using that technique. And I find that that work, you know, for people who have a lot of stuff going on in their head, I find that works real well. And the plan is to use it with physicians and with you know, very busy people who can’t sit around for a half an hour, 45 minutes a day and meditate, you can do stuff in two to three minutes if you you know,
R Blank 28:30
so aside from using an app like that, what’s maybe one piece of actionable advice that you could share with the listeners? How to be less abrasive?
Jordan Goldrich 28:41
Well, in my book,
R Blank 28:44
yeah, so that’s the best selling book, workplace warrior people skills for the no BS executive.
Jordan Goldrich 28:50
Yes, yeah. I have a cat, I have a chapter and it was after taking Bob’s course on compassion, cultivation. And the chapter is called cultivating compassion for people your brain is telling you don’t deserve it. And really, what it is that you know, people miss understand, in Western society, or just in its common usage, compassion is misunderstood as sympathy. And compassion is not sympathy. Compassion is recomm recognizing that someone is behaving, whatever they’re doing, whether you like it or not, that somebody is in pain or suffering in some way. And having the intention and the urge to alleviate that suffering, if you can, whether or not you act on it. So one of the metaphors that I’ve come up with, by the way on everything I teach, I’ve gotten from somewhere else Almost everything in this, this is my metaphor. I’m very proud of it. So if you and I are having a conversation out in the park, and you notice that I’m absent mindedly stepping backwards for you appears to you that I’m absent mindedly stepping backwards. And at least you wonder whether or not I realize it. And you also wonder whether I know that there’s a cliff behind me. And if I keep stepping backwards, I’m going to fall off the cliff and hurt myself, isn’t it the most loving, compassionate thing to say to me, Jordan, I noticed you’re walking backwards, there’s a cliff behind you, I’m concerned that you don’t know that you’re doing that. And if you keep doing that, you’re gonna fall off the cliff? And wouldn’t you? You know, so this has to do with giving negative feedback about people’s performance? And wouldn’t Isn’t it better to do that early before you’re angry and resentful of them when you actually do care? However, compassion, you know, you’re not, you’re not going to compassion is not about letting them off the hook. If if I walk off the cliff, that’s my responsibility. So it really is more about tone of voice and intention. So particularly in giving somebody negative feedback about their performance, it needs to be done early, it needs to be non judgmental. So I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be doing my job supporting your success. If I didn’t give you a piece of feedback. You know, do you have a couple of minutes? Well, no, I don’t. Well, we need to have that conversation pretty soon. So sometime today, or tomorrow, whenever you have time. Okay, so yesterday in the meeting, you came in late, and sat down. And the meeting consisted of our new client and my boss, you came in 20 minutes late, sat down, started talking. My boss, rolled his eyes, as did the new client. And a new client later said, she doesn’t want to work with you. My boss asked me if I have let you know that if you continue to come in late, it’s going to affect your performance. And I’m concerned, I want you to be successful. And then you say something like, Am I missing something. So that’s a pretty compassionate thing. But I’m not letting you off the hook. I am holding you accountable. Right, but it’s not, you jerk, you know, you come in late. And if it happens enough times, before I actually address it, I’m going to be so annoyed that you haven’t listened to me, and I’m going to feel so disrespected, that I’m less likely to actually experience any compassion. So it’s kind of a paradox that most leaders don’t want to tell people, their performance isn’t up to par, because they don’t want to hit him over the head. So they talk in generalities. And they say, Well, we could do this, well, we could do that. And they don’t say, by the way, this is the third complaint I’ve gotten. And I want you to be successful. And by the way, I wouldn’t be doing my job as a manager, because we’re evaluated on our clients. Ratings. You know, so it’s both these things, you know, if that keeps happening, it’s going to negatively affect your career. And that is a very compassionate thing, as long as the feeling is there.
Stephanie Warner 33:37
Right. Right. I think that’s really important. You know, the distinction between being compassionate and opting in, you’re not opting in, if you’re being compassionate. And that is compassionate to give somebody feedback, even if it makes you even if it’s something you don’t really want to do. And I imagine with your framework, it makes it a little bit easier, because by following it, from what I hear, you’ll be framing it in such a way that it can see more like a positive than, look, you’re just doing a bad job, right. And I want you to succeed,
Jordan Goldrich 34:11
right? And the negative feedback, by the way is a gift which goes back to our overly sensitive canceled culture is sort of like if anybody says anything bad to me, and that’s not okay. One of the one of the things on the cliff metaphor is, you know, so if you do that, isn’t that an example of compassion and love and all of that? And, and by the way, do you have any control over whether after you do that to me, I don’t start yelling at you and telling you you’re always criticizing me? How dare you tell me I’m doing it wrong. Totally. So you have to evaluate your success in those conversations based on whether you had compassion and whether you framed it correctly. Not on the reaction of the person, and certainly not on whether they change interest behavior.
R Blank 35:03
Yeah, I think that that’s a really important message for Well, everyone, but for online interactions, I think just as much as as a real life one where it’s not, you have to judge it on its own terms with your own value structure, not necessarily the response that you
Jordan Goldrich 35:22
get. Yeah, you have to be a you have to be a target, not a victim. The fact that they shot, the fact that they shot anger at you doesn’t mean that you’re wounded. Right? In fact, in fact, if you’re, if you are really solid, you can go Wow, that really stirred up some pain in them. Because it’s a defensive response. You know, what are they suffering from? Are they suffering from narcissism? Are they suffering from,
Stephanie Warner 35:52
you know, officeteam, self esteem
Jordan Goldrich 35:54
issues, you know, what’s what’s going on? And then, you know, it can help you speak to them differently. And the paradox about it is that, you know, if you have good intention, you’re more likely to be successful in terms of their reactions. But you’ve got no control that,
R Blank 36:13
Stephanie Warner 36:16
yeah, I find for myself, when I get critiqued, my immediate reaction is, is is a little bit more negative. But I always think about and especially if the feedback that I’m given is given in a compassionate way, and I want you to succeed way, at first, you know, my first initial reaction is not what my reaction is the next day, when I’m not when have had time to think about it. And like, Okay, what just happened? And what is good about this? Yeah,
Jordan Goldrich 36:46
I love what you’re saying. Because again, in my family, there was no break between reaction and I have had to learn to sleep on it before I react. That’s, that is very positive. Yeah, I like
R Blank 36:59
ending on a positive note, Jordan Goldrich. It’s been a real pleasure having you on the healthier tech podcast. As a reminder to the listeners, your best selling book, workplace warrior people skills for the no BS executive is available on Amazon. And you host, the wonderful workplace warrior podcast, and we’re gonna have both of those links in, in the in the show notes.
Jordan Goldrich 37:21
Yes. So by the way, my last podcast was a solo. Based on Doug coaching me to do so loves Doug and JJ coaching me to do solos. For those of you who don’t know, Doug Sandler and JJ, flip xanes, I think because her last name are the ones who helped me learn how to do a podcast. And, and it’s called Target or victim had a had a thrive with a tough CEO. So
R Blank 37:52
that’s great. Yeah, I was actually listening to that earlier today. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, much.
Jordan Goldrich 37:59
I was great conversation and pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the healthier tech podcast. Remember to check the show notes for all the links and resources mentioned in the show. Please like and subscribe to the healthier tech podcast on Apple, Spotify or your podcast platform of choice. Get your free quickstart guide to building a healthy relationship with technology and our latest information at healthier tech.co
Transcribed by https://otter.ai